Canada paid the price yesterday for its principled foreign policy stance, especially for its support of Israel, when it lost its bid to Portugal for a non-permanent seat on the powerful United Nations Security Council. In an indication as to how much the world has changed, it was the first time since the world body’s inception in 1945 that Canada had not won a Security Council seat after having been elected in every previous decade.
Canada, a founding UN member, withdrew its candidacy for the two seats reserved for “Western European and Other States” after the second ballot when it lost a third of the support it had received on the first ballot. Requiring a two-thirds majority, Canada received only 78 votes while Portugal took 113. Portugal won unopposed in the third round of voting, while Germany claimed outright the other non-permanent seat, valid for a two-year term, on the first ballot with 128 votes. Canada had last served on the council in 2000.
To the chagrin of the UN’s petty tyrants and dictators, the Conservative government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, in power since 2006, is a strong, unabashed supporter of Israel. And to his credit, Harper steadfastly refused to “water down” his government’s foreign policy direction to curry their favour during Canada’s campaign to secure a seat. The Conservatives even announced the day before the vote that it was strengthening its trading relationship with Israel, a move that would have displeased the UN’s Arab-Muslim block. For years, these countries have tried to diplomatically isolate Israel, passing numerous motions against the Jewish state.
“The principles that underlie the policy of foreign affairs, freedom, democracy, human rights and common law, are the foundation of each of these decisions. Some would say that because of our attachment to these values, we lost the seat. If that is the case, so be it,” said a defiant Canadian foreign minister, Lawrence Cannon, after yesterday’s defeat.
Canada’s stout refusal to compromise on those values also earned a rebuke recently from the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Like a schoolyard bully, the UAE abruptly banned Canada this week from its military base, Camp Mirage, on Emirate territory that the Canadians have been using since 2001 to deploy their soldiers to Afghanistan. The Emirate government even refused to allow the Canadian defence minister and chief of defence staff to fly over its territory when the two high-ranking officials were returning from a three-day tour of Afghanistan.
muchiboy, I don't need a lesson in the history of the "good pastor". You chose to quote him for your own reasons, and it was your motivation I was questioning, not his. As always, you miss the point. You're not very good at this debating stuff, you know.
Muchiboy (aka Ron Grant) knows he'll lose all his arguments that's why he never posts any facts (he has none) and just falls back on the tired old argument of colonialism, ethnic cleansing, blah blah blah ad nauseam.
"Your a Jew hatting idiot who is engaged in Islamic fascism.."
OK,you can say what you like about me and you are entitled to your own opinion,but there are many critics more intelligent and respected then me,Jews included,with much the same opinion.No doubt you will be equally dismissive of them.
"I knew what too do in ww2 WITH THE LIKES OF YOU "
And them ,too? Muchiboy
"You're not very good at this debating stuff, you know."
And you won't let me forget,eh,stern.But I'm learning from the best.Thank you,stern.Muchiboy
"Actually, that's probably precisely why muchiboy refuses to read it. "
I will keep my eyes open for Karsh's book,stern.But in addition to YOUR facts,we must not ignore MY values.We have seen what your beloved Israel can do with facts on the ground and how they have impacted the Palestinian people,then and now.
There is much to be considered from fact to human behavior.Muchiboy
"But in addition to YOUR facts,we must not ignore MY value"
Your values are garbage. I'll chose to ignore the twisted values of a racist Rhodesian thank you very much.
"whose (note correct grammar)"
Duly noted,stolensermons.
""More Jews were expelled than the number of Palestinians who left…"
The actions of the Arab regimes,as despicable as they were,doesn't negate nor justify Jewish behavior.When we finish with your math class we can go on to my ethics and human behavior class just down the corridor.
"BTW, the majority of Israel's Jewish population can trace its ancestry to the Arab world, not to Europe."
And all of mankind can trace its ancestry to Africa,stolensermons.Really,it never hurts to be reminded that we are all God's children.Muchiboy
Here you go again, missing the point. stolen sermons was refuting what you'd said about most of Israel's Jewish population coming from Europe. The majority of Israel's CURRENT population comes from the Arab world – they are the so called "Eastern Jews". Once again, you demonstrate your willful ignorance. It's not that you don't know, it's that you don't want to know.
I also think that what stolen sermons was suggesting is that if the Arab world had resettled its refugees in the same way Israel resettled the Jewish refugees from Arab countries, we would not be in this mess. In fact, Israel probably did too good a job, because nobody ever considers any compensation these people might be owed after being kicked out of their homes and had all their property stolen. If Israel had used these refugees as political pawns the way the Arab world has used the Palestinians, the playing field might be a bit more even.
But then you'd have to find another reason to criticize Israel and the Jews (which probably wouldn't be too difficult for you, given the low standard you require for "evidence".)
Howzit,Judy.Next year,Salisbury!
"The Palestinians are the unfortunate victims of Arab wars against Israel. "
Perhaps,Judy,but they are also victims of Zionism and Israeli occupation and effective ethnic cleansing.That is why Jews have more land and are a majority within their borders,borders that exclude most of the Palestinian people.Neither can you ignore the settler community's long ,persistent and ongoing encroachment and expropriation of Palestinian land.It is just a continuation of the European Jewish settler community's occupation of Palestine. When will the Jews stop occupying Palestinian land?How much more Arab land will they occupy before they are satisfied?
Sure,Palestine has always been home to Jews,but for centuries(despite denials on this form) it has been home to Arabs,too.And in modern times,within living memory,hundreds of thousands of Jews from Europe occupied and settled Palestine as did Europeans settle Rhodesia.Both cases are examples of occupation and colonization,with admittedly,the Jews settling Palestine a very special,qualified case.
Now Rhodesia,despite being occupied and colonized,even with the TTLs and townships,never denied Africans their birth right nor homeland.And neither did South Africa,with it's policy of Apartheid,townships and homelands.
There is enough room in Palestine/Israel for both peoples to live,Jew and Arab.As we both know,what made Rhodesia so beautiful was the land and the people,African,European,Asian and Colored.Unfortunately,the fears of the European community in Rhodesia were all too real,and Jews no doubt have similar fears about the Palestinian community in Israel.
For the most part I have argued for the human rights of the Palestinian people,their birth rights and their rights to live within the borders of their homeland,all denied by Israeli Jews.I would not deny any Jew a homeland and sanctuary in Israel/Palestine,and the same for the European community in southern ,central and E.Africa.It goes without saying that all peoples in these countries should enjoy equal citizenship and benefits.
While I make demands of the Israeli's,I would expect no less from the Palestinians.Muchiboy
muchiboy, the reason you are becoming so tedious is because you refuse to be persuaded by the evidence. I'm not the only one who has pointed out your factual errors, yet you keep repeating them.
Israel Jews do not deny Palestinians the right to live within the borders of their homeland. In fact, Israel has been trying for years to get the Palestinians to agree to the borders of that homeland. But as you may have noticed in the news lately, the Palestinians are the ones who keep refusing the Jews' rights! They won't even recognize Israel as the Jewish state, because that would mean giving up their "right" to destroy it and create a single Palestine from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. I'd be interested in hearing your views on this.
"The majority of Israel's CURRENT population comes from the Arab world – they are the so called "Eastern Jews". Once again, you demonstrate your willful ignorance."
Expound on this,please,stern.But I'm not sure this should make a difference anyway.The matter of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refuges displaced by Jews and their descendants doesn't go away.Muchiboy
"if the Arab world had resettled its refugees in the same way Israel resettled the Jewish refugees from Arab countries, "
Of course not stern,but I don't think it was (nor is) the Arabs problem in the first place.Arab states didn't occupy and displace Palestinians,the Zionists did.So let the Jews solve the problem with the very land they occupied in stead of demanding the Arab states re settle the Palestinian diaspora,though that has happened.Many Palestinians dream of returning to their own homeland,much of which is within present day Israeli borders.Their dream is not so different from the now realized dreams of the European Zionists.Muchiboy
"The matter of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refuges displaced by Jews and their descendants doesn't go away."
They displaced themselves in 1948 to clear the way for the Arab armies to wipe out (genocide) the Jews. Had the Arabs not waged war of extermination against Israel in the first place there would never have been any refugee problems.
"Palestinians dream of returning to their own homeland,much of which is within present day Israeli borders."
They dream of returning to a "homeland" they only lived in for 2 years! If you go back 20 or more years from 1947, the vast majority of the Arabs came from the surrounding region. Israel was mostly desolate and empty before Zionist pioneers returned to bring it back to life.
"In more than 40 years, the so-called "settlers" have built upon a grand total of FIVE PERCENT OF THE WEST BANK. Five (5) flipping percent!!!!! "
You're right,stern,nickle and dime stuff.But why is your so moral,so civilized ,so democratic Jewish state nickle and diming the Palestinian people when they have lost so much,and you have gained,at their expense,so much.Why? The world,even your allies want to know.Muchiboy
"But why is your so moral,so civilized ,so democratic Jewish state nickle and diming the Palestinian people when they have lost so much,and you have gained,at their expense,so much."
If anyone has been nickel and dimed it has been the Jews. Did you even read Stern's comments? All of the land that makes up Israel, Gaza, W. Bank and Jordan were originally promised to the Jews. Palestinians lost nothing, they have only gained and continue to demand and steal Jewish land.
According to British statistics, more than 70% of the land in what would become Israel (proper) was not owned by Arabs, it belonged to the Jewish mandatory government, "which reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British." Another 9% of the land was privately owned by Jews and about 3% privately owned by Arabs (who became citizens of Israel). That means only 18% of Israel proper "belonged to Arabs who left the country before and after the Arab invasion" of Israel.
I guess your longstanding argument of Jews "stealing land" goes out the window huh?
muchiboy, time for you do a bit more homework, if you date. Look for the demographics. Find the numbers that tell you how many Arabs lived in their "homeland" before the Jewish return began in the late 1800s, early 1900s. Notice how the Arab population exploded as Jews created work. Also look up the UNRWA definition of a Palestinian refugee. Note how it says that any Arab who had been in the Holy Land for two years – TWO YEARS, muchiboy – qualified as a refugee. Note also how the number of registered refugees far outstripped all expectations as the Arabs began to realize that UNRWA would take care of them.
Then ask yourself whether your empathy for the poor fellows "yearning to go home" isn't just a little misplaced.
This is the last time I'm checking this particular thread. It's almost Shabbat. but no doubt our debate will continue elsewhere, on another thread because clearly, you will never give up, no matter how often or how convincingly your idiotic arguments are refuted.
One more for you, muchiboy:
Memo to Abbas: Jews Also Have a Right to a Homeland By Rabbi Abraham Cooper
Rabbi Abraham Cooper
Associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and its Museum of Tolerance
Posted: October 12, 2010 03:29 PM
Memo to Abbas: Jews Also Have a Right to a Homeland
The State of Israel is roughly the size of the state of New Jersey, 1/20th the size of California. Today,as genocider- wannabe Ahmadinejad tours Lebanon, Israel’s northern and central civilian communities are threatened by 60,000 rockets deployed by Iran’s lethal lackey-Hezbollah, Iran’s lackey in Southern Lebanon. Meanwhile, Hamas continues to launch missiles at Ashdod and other cities and towns that lie between Gaza and Tel Aviv, 40 miles away.
Against this backdrop, US President Obama strives to broker a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinian Authority that controls Palestinian cities on the West Bank. The president is pressuring Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu to extend a ten– month freeze on building in Israeli settlements on the West Bank.
Mr. Netanyahu has offered to extend the freeze if his (supposed) partner in peace recognizes Israel as a Jewish State. PA President Abbas declined. His spokesman declared: “The topic of the Jewishness of the state is not connected at all to the issue [of the building freeze]”.
The New York Times on its front page labeled Netanyahu’s move “A Puzzling Offer” and went on offer an extensive “news analysis” headlined:
Netanyahu’s New Offer Doesn’t Sway Palestinians or Shed Light on His Motives
With all due respect to Middle East pundits, there’s nothing puzzling at all about the Israeli Prime Minister’s offer. Israelis– Left, Right, and Center watch Palestinian TV, peruse websites and read Arab language newspapers. Young Palestinians continue to be inculcated with the canard that the Holy Land—all of it including Haifa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem belong to them; that their Zionist neighbors have no legitimacy; that negotiations are just one stop along the road toward the day when millions of Palestinians—who never set foot in Israel—will exercise their “right of return” to Israel proper.
Forget the openly genocidal Hamas, the PA and it’s President Mahmoud Abbas who refuse to take the path of the late Egyptian Peacemaker Anwar Sadat and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of any part of their Jewish neighbor’s national aspirations destiny.
Prime Minister Netanyahu was right to link the settlement freeze with Palestinian recognition of Israel’s Jewish statehood. “A Palestinian state could be a cause of continued conflict and terror if it is not handled responsibly," said Netanyahu. "Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state is central to the dispute between us [and is necessary for its resolution]. If the Palestinians expect a national state, we can expect our own national state for the Jewish people. . . . There is no other democracy in the Middle East, and there is no other Jewish state in the world.”
President Obama has a powerful opportunity here. He’s exerted enormous pressure on the Israelis, 95% of whom no longer seek “ a Greater Israel”. By publicly backing Netanyahu’s call, Mr. Obama may force the Palestinians to put their vision of a ”Greater Palestine” on a reality-based diet and to finally get serious about “a two-state solution, with two nations living peacefully side by side.”
"Yet you support the Palestinians who regularly torture and kill dogs as they are viewed as unclean according to Sharia."
You can only do so much,MixMChess.As with the senior dogs in kill shelters,you can't save them all,though they all deserve their forever homes ,each and every one.Some Asian's cage,sell and eat dog,and there are campaigns to end that tradition.Islam as with other religions needs to evolve into modernity,recognizing human rights and dignities,including the rights of children,females and gays.Needless cruelty,in what ever form,should never be tolerated,for religious or any other reason.Again,human rights along with animal rights evolves,along side all other human and natural endeavors and phenomenon.
"I just care about Israel acknowledging how they have wronged the Palestinian people and making fair and just amends.After that,you can all go to hell for all I care,Israeli and Palestinian alike."
"So really, you don't care about the plight of the Palestinians or whats best for Palestinian children, you just care about destroying Israel."
Did I say that? Or were you reading between the lines? If "making fair and just amends" means destroying Israel that would seem to me to depend on the nature of the "amends".If you Jews are so clever then I'm sure you could come up with some "fair and just amends" that wouldn't destroy Israel.And if the Palestinians are so eager to provide their children with the future that was previously denied their parents,they could accept "fair and just amends" that would satisfy their children's dreams,if not their own. Muchiboy
"Did I say that? Or were you reading between the lines?"
I'm not reading between the lines because you don't care about REAL atrocities, crimes and land theft inflicted upon the Palestinians by states like Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. You focus your anger only at Israel. Clearly your hatred of Israel trumps the well being or any true justice for the Palestinians.
"If you Jews are so clever then I'm sure you could come up with some "fair and just amends" that wouldn't destroy Israel."
Um, remember in 2000 when Israel offered the Palestinians their own state in the W. Bank and Gaza, and the Palestinians refused without even a counter-offer? Israel has agreed to pay compensation to refugees and even descendants of refugees (who never even set foot in Israel or Palestinian territory). All of this despite the fact that Arabs are the ones to blame for the Palestinians misery. Israel still continues to offer a two state solution and compromise – idiots like you don't care about compromise or seeing a wealthy and successful state side-by-side with Israel, you just want to destroy the Jewish state to spite the Jews.
And muchiboy , please do not insult the intelligence of other readers and your own , by attempting to infer some sort of moral equivelance between the Israelis and palestinians , there is none . For if the Israelis ever took the same position of the Palestinians towards jews ….there would be no palestinians . And you of all people most certainly know that .
And BTW muchiboy , Stern sees right through your phony facade , and although you do a dance around other relative issues , Stern has got you pinned for what youy are , just as I have after reading ANY of your posts relative to this issue .
"Exactly, you don't care that Jordan, Syria and Lebanaon denies Palestinians their rightful birthrights to their lands. Your anger is only focused on the Jews."
Name me an individual or organization that is active in all good causes,MixMChess.Maybe Don Quixote.Even in the realm of dog rescue,nearly all the breeds have their own rescue group.Do you donate to all charities?Or a few that have your heart?The good thing is there are so many of us that in the end most charities get something.I think your criticism of me in that context is unreasonable.Muchiboy
That sir makes you a disgusting antisemite,"
I don't expect you to support all charities,but you're clearly missing the point. You have made it very obvious that one of your "causes" is the Palestinians. Thus, if you supposedly care deeply about the Palestinians and their welfare, you would be outraged that Jordan literally committed genocide on 25,000+ Palestinian civilians. Jordan killed 3 times as many Palestinians IN ONE MONTH as Israel has during its entire conflict with the Palestinians going back to 1948!
If you REALLY cared about Palestinian welfare than you would promote a 2-state solution where a viable Palestinian state can exist successful next to Israel and become the next economic powerhouse in the region. The W. Bank has the capability of putting gulf states like Dubai to shame with tourism and economics.
Based on the bile and venom you continually spit here, its clear that your only "cause" is destroying the Jewish state to spite the Jews. You're a filthy antisemite that can't even be honest with yourself.
"Your values are garbage. I'll chose to ignore the twisted values of a racist Rhodesian thank you very much. "
I think I've just been told! Don't you have any shame,MixMChess.Muchiboy
'
Muchiboy , there's a reason you skipped over the informationb I posted , IT'S TRUE , and the truth is a rather annoying bone stuck in your throat . The true intentions of the palestinians , has always been known , and they have no problem being stupid enough to blurt it out before the world , which they do on a regular basis . It is irefutable .
But as I said , their propaganda is designed for dupes like yourself , who swallow it hook ,line and sinker .
And stuff , your "faux-concern " for palestinian children , for if you were truly concerned you might be raising the point that they are taught to hate just like their parents , and at a very early age , thus the upcoming generation has already been poisoned , intentionally by their parents .
"I guess your longstanding argument of Jews "stealing land" goes out the window huh? "
If it were only that simple,my friend.Muchiboy
"you just want to destroy the Jewish state to spite the Jews."
If there were no victims,MixMChess,if indeed there was just "empty desert" occupied by the Zionists,which I don't believe (and we will leave that for another day,but I promise to do more research on this point),then we might not be having this debate.
But given my beliefs that there are true victims,I want those injustices addressed,and that means lands.If you insist on compensation,then we can talk about the filthy oil rich Arab states paying compensation to the Jews for the return of Palestinian land.But what I would like to see,and what I would like to have seen in Zimbabwe,would be the two (Semitic in one case,African and European in the other) peoples live together to the benefit of all.But of course the devil is in the details,MixMChess.Muchiboy
"if indeed there was just "empty desert" occupied by the Zionists"
Have you even ever looked at a map of Israel? The arid Negev makes up approximately 50% of Israeli land.
"But what I would like to see,and what I would like to have seen in Zimbabwe,would be the two (Semitic in one case,African and European in the other) peoples live together to the benefit of all."
The situation in Zimbabwe is not at all comparable to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That said, Israel has tried to compromise (1993, 2000, 2005, 2006….2010) with the Palestinians to create a two state solution which would be mutually beneficial for both peoples.
"If you REALLY cared about Palestinian welfare than you would promote a 2-state solution where a viable Palestinian state can exist successful next to Israel and become the next economic powerhouse in the region. "
Well,of course I don't have a personal stake (other then human interest and concern) in this conflict,unlike perhaps you,who consider Israel your "homeland,too".I have even less loyalty or connection to Palestine (though my mother's father was born in Bethlehem circa 1890's?) then to England or Scotland(my father's father born in England).While my natural preference would be a one state solution to satisfy long standing Palestinian injustices,if a satisfactory solution involving hard compromise met with the approval of most Palestinians,then that's their business,problem solved.Secretly,though,I would contribute to programs encouraging multiple births for Israeli Arabs!
Muchiboy
"While my natural preference would be a one state solution to satisfy long standing Palestinian injustices,if a satisfactory solution involving hard compromise met with the approval of most Palestinians,then that's their business,problem solved."
That's just it… your entire framing of the conflict comes from a false premise that Jews stole Palestinian land. Once you get past that lie you can clearly see that a two state solution would actually satisfy any supposed "injustices" of the Palestinians. Your advocacy for a one-state solution actually works against the best interests of Palestinians. Your wish "to stick it to the Jews" trumps any real concerns for the Palestinians. Obviously have no "personal stake" in this conflict other than an opportunity to defame Jews.
"Secretly,though,I would contribute to programs encouraging multiple births for Israeli Arabs!
"
Of course, no doubt you would support any way to ethnically cleanse the Jews from their historical homeland and birthright.
"Based on the bile and venom you continually spit here,…"
"Bile and venom..spit" wouldn't be my choice to describe my arguments opposing Zionism,MixMChess.For the most part,they have been reasonable and respectful in the equivalent of a lions den.Certainly they have been in opposition to the popular opinion here,but that is the nature of debate.The forum is open and encourages "intense debate".That's what we both do here.Again,I am unashamedly anti-Zionist,not Antisemitic.I don't think there are any good reasons for hating Jews,but several million good reasons for hating Zionism.If you equate my anti Zionism with antisemitism,then that is your problem,and all we can do is agree to disagree,but it makes any debate on this subject difficult if not intractable.Muchiboy.
"For the most part,they have been reasonable and respectful in the equivalent of a lions den."
Excuse you! Defaming Israel by falsely accusing her of genocide, ethnic cleansing and human rights abuses and comparing her to Nazis is a systematic attempt to inflame the senses delegitimize Israel. They are in no way reasonable or respectful arguments. Shame on anyone who didn't jump on you for hateful remarks in this "lions den."
"Again,I am unashamedly anti-Zionist,not Antisemitic."
Anti-Zionism = Antisemitism. Denying only the Jews among all nations and peoples a right to self determination in their historical homeland is biased, bigoted, discriminatory and antisemitic. Plain and simple.
Perhaps my characterization of bile, venom and spit didn't do justice to the immoral and disgusting character of your arguments?
Just listening to Lennon's Imagine.What a loss.Happy Birthday,John.Muchiboy
"Excuse you! Defaming Israel by falsely accusing her of genocide, ethnic cleansing and human rights abuses and comparing her to Nazis is a systematic attempt to inflame the senses delegitimize Israel."
Well,yes,I understand comparisons with Nazi's on this forum is pretty insensitive and invites a vociferous response and I will watch my mouth in future,but it sure makes the point.I need to review my use in older posts.But I do have a big difference of opinion from most members here,and because the issue is so huge and important,emotions are bound to get high.Or would you like me just to drop by,sit down,shut my mouth and take in all the wisdom until I share your truth.Muchiboy.
I wonder how come we are still having the debate of who is write and who is wrong. The moral principles of Canada is not to support Israel to commit its war crimes. It is to resist the suppression. If you are a Jew no one is allowed to hate you for that, but at the same time you are not allowed to harm any one while playing a victim. Zionist believe they are better than the non Jews. They give militarily training and weapons to illegal Jew settlers. As a result these settlers attack and kill innocent Palestine kids. Only a racist can think that killing of other human is justified because they are Arab and non-western. There is nothing that Hitler did and Israel are not doing. There is no morality in supporting all the actions of Israel, right or wrong. The truth is Just like the fall of Nazis, Zionist will fall. This Illegal, illegitimate regime should be punished for their war crimes.